You: If you do not believe that love and giving can exist without hope then I can find other examples. What about the belief that it is bad, or at least undesirable, to die? For someone who held this belief, continued existence would be the meaning of life, regardless of the state that one is in.

Aaron: A person who felt in that way would just go on living without feeling that things would be better later. He would not necessarily have hope, that is true, but such a hopeless state could hardly be called good.

You: Who says that life has to be good? There is no reason that it must be unless you believe in either fate, karma or justice, and justice is what you are trying to prove in the first place. I take it that you are not willing to argue the necessity of fate or karma without God?

Aaron: Of course not.

You: Then I suggest you try another argument.