You: In order for God to maintain order, he must have a plan. If God's plan is disorderly, then it will not work so it must be orderly. If God's plan is orderly, then you are admitting that there was order before the universe was created (because God must have had a plan for the universe before he created it).

I hope you are keeping up with me.

Now, God either always had a plan for the universe or he created that plan. If he always had the plan, and the plan was orderly, then there has always been orderliness so we might as well assume that the universe is that orderliness and leave God out of it all together. If he did not always have the plan, then he either created it using a logical train of thought, thus making it the plan of an orderly process, or he made it out of nothing. In the first case, the orderly plan came from an orderly process that existed before it and we are back to assuming that orderliness has existed through out all time. In the second case, orderliness comes out of nothing in the mind of God, and if we can believe that we can believe that orderliness can come out of nothing in the material universe as well. In any case, God is not necessary.

Aaron: You are being ridiculous. God created his plan by using his infinite mind and, although I admit that the mind of God must be orderly, that does not prove that there can be orderliness without God. The orderliness of his mind exists only because God exists, and there could be no order without him.

How do you respond?

  1. Then his mental orderliness is a brute fact. Go
  2. Then his mental orderliness is the ultimate fact. Go
  3. Then his mental orderliness must have been created. Go